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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

转自mf论坛,介绍了战士关于姿态,技能,治疗,dps等仇恨值,以及嘲讽的实质,aggro的计算方法. 根据bwl里的现象我发现准确率满高的.

文章分3部分
1.kenco部分关于110%理论的完整说明
2.关于bwl3号引发的aggro上限思考
3.cop的技能仇恨量化说明


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注:kenco(第一部分作者)更新了他的帖子,该帖子在官方论坛有15页的回帖,而且很有技术含量.既然kenco根据回帖更新我也跟着更新.

以下是我在2月7号在官方论坛看到的更新后的帖子部分原文:

Gaining aggro on a mob Updated Jan 31  获得aggro 更新于1月31号

Suppose a mob is attacking player 1. In order for the mob to switch to player 2, he must do more than just exceed the threat of player 1. If he is in melee range of the mob, he will draw aggro when he exceeds 110% of player 1's threat. If he is outside melee range of the mob, he will draw aggro when he exceeds 130% of player 1's threat.
假设一个怪物正在攻击玩家1. 为了让怪物目标变成玩家2,玩家2必须使自己仇恨远超过1.如果他在怪物的肉搏攻击范围内,他需要超过110%的1的仇恨;如果他在怪物的肉搏攻击范围之外,他需要130%的1的仇恨.

If player 2 has exceeded 110% threat but not 130% threat, they will draw aggro immediately if they do a threat-generating ability within melee range of the mob, but proximity alone will not cause the mob to shift to them.
如果玩家2仇恨在110%和130%之间,那么他在怪物肉搏攻击范围内使用一个仇恨技能就能立刻获得aggro,但只是接近怪物的话怪物是不会转移目标的.

破甲的仇恨值为261,之前是260.
英文原文:
Sunder: 261 (260.95 - 261.15)  --------

Casting taunt causes three effects.
使用嘲讽后造成3个效果

A) The warrior is given as much threat as the person who currently has the mob's aggro. Obviously if the warrior has aggro, this will do nothing. Also, this effect will not lower the warriors threat. For example, if player 1 has 100 threat and aggro, a warrior could have 105 but not aggro; after taunt he would still be on 105 threat.
A)战士将获得当前得到怪物aggro的玩家的等量仇恨.显然如果这个战士本来就是目标,嘲讽将无意义,不过这个效果并不会降低战士的仇恨.
例如如果玩家1有100仇恨并且获得aggro,战士可能有105仇恨但是没有aggro.那么战士使用嘲讽后还是有105的仇恨.

B) The mob recalculates its actual aggro target. If the warrior was on the mob's hatelist before the original aggro target, the mob's actual aggro target will switch to the warrior. Otherwise, the mob will remember it's original target.
B)怪物会重新计算谁成为当前aggro对象.如果战士在怪物仇恨列表的位置比嘲讽前那个aggro目标的位置靠前,那么这个战士将成为怪物的aggro对象,否则怪物会继续找以前那个目标.

C) The normal taunt debuff. The mob is forced to attack the warrior, even if the warrior is not its actual aggro target. C)嘲讽的buff会强制怪物攻击战士,即使战士不是怪物真正的目标.

The threat that the warrior gains from (A) is permanent, regardless of the outcome of (B). Note that it will not necessarily give the warrior the equal highest threat on the mob. If player 1 has 100 threat and aggro, Player 2 has 109 threat but not aggro, and the warrior has 0 threat, then the warrior is given 100 threat, not 109, so he could easily lose aggro to Player 2 after taunting.
战士通过(A)获得的仇恨是永久的,而不管(B)的结果如何.注意战士获得的仇恨并不是怪物仇恨列表里最高那个.假如玩家1有100仇恨并且获得aggro,玩家2有109仇恨但是没有获得aggro,
而战士有0仇恨,然后战士使用嘲讽后仇恨为100而不是109,因此他可能在嘲讽后失去aggro,而玩家2成为怪物目标

更新点4:


10) Implications Updated Jan 19. Updated Jan 21. Note this section is just my opinion.  
结论 更新于1月19,21号,注意这节代表我的个人观点(月猪:是kenco的个人观点不是我的)

a) Let the tank pull! Then he will be first on all the mobs' hatelists, and his taunts will always return aggro to him.
a)让mt拉怪!他将在第一个出现在所有怪物的仇恨列表里,那么他的嘲讽将很容易获得aggro.
b) Given that targets at range will only draw aggro when they have more than 130% of the mob's target's current threat, it's important for a tank to keep the mobs well away from the casters. If a healer does draw aggro and you taunt it off him, make sure you also move it away.
b)与怪物保持距离的目标需要超过当前目标130%的仇恨才能获得aggro,那么mt把怪物拉远离施法者将很重要.如果一个治疗人员ot了然后你嘲讽,那么请务必也将怪物拉远点.

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---原文---

  It's often said that we will never be able to work out the way threat and hate lists and mobs' AI works, because it's too complicated and unknowable, that we'll only ever have crude approximations and guesses. I've conducted some decent, rigorous tests, and i have what i believe is a good list of hate values and explanations of gaining and losing aggro and the behaviour of taunt. I am also able to debunk a few myths about how threat works.
  大家普遍认为我们永远无法解算出仇恨以及仇恨列表以及怪物的AI,因为这个系统复杂未知,所以我们只能推导和得到一些粗略的近似值.我做了一些正规严格的测试,并且得出了我认为很优秀的包括仇恨列表,对获得和失去aggro以及嘲讽的合理解释. 本文将揭开关于仇恨系统的神秘面纱.
1) Definitions 定义

We define "aggro" to be who the mob is attacking. We define "threat" to be a numeric value that each mob has towards each player on it's hate list. Note, as we shall soon see, even for a normal mob, the target who has aggro is not necessarily the player on it's threat list with the most threat.
我们定义aggro为怪物正在攻击的目标,我们定义“仇恨”为怪物对于每个玩家在仇恨列表中的量化数值。需要注意的是,如我们下面要讲的,任何一个怪物,在仇恨列表里最高位并不是取得aggro的必要条件。

We define arbitratily that 1 point of unmodified damage gives 1 point of threat.
我们定义1点无修正伤害产生1点仇恨

2) 如何取得aggro(aggro:成为boss的目标)- 超越10%仇恨

Simply put, for a mob to change aggro to a new target, the new target must have over 10% more threat than the mob's current target. E.g. mob is attacking player x. x does 100 damage to mob, then stops. Player y starts hitting the mob. The mob will start attacking y when y does over 110 damage.
想使怪物目标转到一个新目标上,那么新目标必须超过现有目标对该怪物仇恨的10%. 例如:怪物正在攻击玩家x, x对怪物造成100伤害,然后停止. 玩家y开始攻击怪物,当造成110伤害后怪物开始攻击y.

Proof: this is easy to demonstrate. Get two players both doing autoattack on a mob (not warriors of rogues; we'll see later they complicate things). Have player 1 do a certain amount of damage, then stop. Have player 2 keep attacking till he gets aggro. You have an upper and lower bound on the threat required to get aggro - 1 attack before he got aggro was not enough, but the attack that he got aggro was at least enough. With low damage attacks (i.e. fists only), you will get a very good value of 10%.
实验:很容易的证明,2个玩家都自动攻击一个怪(不要是战士或者盗贼,等会说明更为复杂的东西),玩家1先造成一定数量的伤害然后停止,玩家2继续攻击直到他取得aggro。你可以得到一个带有上下限范围的仇恨来取得aggro---玩家1攻击到造成怪物aggro的最少伤害,使用最低攻击(比如空手攻击),你可以得到一个非常准确的10%。


This is only a deion of the normal mob targetting. Obviously there are mobs who will attack secondary targets with special abilities, ignoring their current threat / aggro.
以上只能用来描述普通怪,显然有些怪物有特殊技能忽略当时的仇恨或者aggro而攻击第2目标。

3) Threat modifiers from Warrior Stances 战士姿态的仇恨修正

In Battle Stance and Berserker Stance, all threat from a Warrior is multiplied by 80%. In defensive stance, the multiplier is 130%. With Defiance, it is 145%.
战斗和狂爆姿态,战士的所有仇恨值为80%.防御姿态为130%,如果有defiance天赋为145%。

Proof: a simple modification of the above proof. Get a warrior to do, say, 1000 damage in defensive stance, without defiance. Get a non-warrior to take aggro with white damage. You will find it does not happen before 1430 damage. The warrior's 1000 damage caused 1300 threat in defensive stance, and the 10% barrier means you need more than 1430 to gain aggro.
实验:让一个战士在防御姿态造成1000伤害,且没有defiance.一个非战士职业通过普通攻击取得aggro,你将发现在造成1430伤害前aggro无法取得. 防御姿态战士的1000伤害达到了1300的仇恨,而10%的设置需要高于1430的伤害来获得aggro。

4) 仇恨不会随时间消退

Threat never, ever decays. Here is test data. Warrior does 83 damage on mob in battle stance, gains aggro. From above, we know it will take more than 83 * 0.8 * 1.1 = 73.04 threat to gain aggro. Warrior waits for 5 minutes getting beat on. Then mage starts attacking slowly. Mage does 73 damage, but does not gain aggro! Mage does another 2 damage, and does gain aggro. From the warrior's initial hit to losing aggro, the time taken was 496 seconds.
仇恨不会消退.这里有测试数据. 战斗姿态战士对怪物造成83点伤害,取得了aggro. 从上我们知道需要造成83x0.8x1.1=73.04仇恨才能抢到aggro. 战士等待了5分钟在攻击,然后法师开始缓慢攻击. 法师造成73点伤害带市未能获得aggro.法师又造成了2点伤害后,取得了aggro.。从战士开始攻击到失去aggro,全过程一共用了496秒。


As an upper bound, assume maximal threat decay. i.e. the mage only needed 73.000000001 threat to gain aggro. Then the warrior's threat had decayed to 66.36363636, from 66.4. This means he went down to 99.945% threat in 496 seconds.

假设仇恨衰减达到最大(73是临界值的话). 法师只需要73.000000001仇恨来取得aggro. 然后战士仇恨从66.4衰减到66.36363636. 这意味着他在496秒里失去了99.945%的仇恨。


At this maximal rate of hate decay, the time taken for the warrior's threat to decay to 90% of the original value would be 26.5 hours. In fact, if a warrior logged in as soon as the server came online after the weekly reset and hit a mob, his threat would not decay to 50% before the server reset next week. I think this is enough to rule out threat decay.
根据这个最大仇恨衰减率,这个战士仇恨衰减到90%需要26.5小时.实际上,如果一个战士在服务器开始时候登陆,在下个星期服务器维护时也无法衰减50%仇恨.我认为这个足够可以无视仇恨衰减了。

5) 战士技能产生的仇恨值

the following list is not exhaustive, but includes all the major tanking abilities.
下面的列表不够全面,但是包括了战士的几个主要拉仇恨技能。
Note: the following values are given in raw terms. In reality the warrior must have either a 1.3 or 0.8 or 1.45 modifier on these, depending on his stance and talents.
注:下面的数值排列顺序不分先后,实际上战士有1.3或者0.8或者1.45的修正,取决于姿态和天赋
Note: * All abilities do not include threat generated by their damage. This will be discussed more later.
注:带*的技能仇恨不包括伤害带来的仇恨,这个以后讨论。
破甲: 260 (258.0 - 260.8)
英勇*: 145 (143.9 - 148.8)
复仇*: 315 (313.9 - 318.3)
复仇昏迷: 25 (23.4 - 29.1)
盾击*: 180 (175.4 - 180.3)
盾牌猛击*: ?? 250 (estimated from Cop's data. More on that later)
盾档: 0 (0 - 0. Can be higher - more on this later)
雷霆一击*: 130 (126.9 - 134.8)
挫志吼叫: 43 (42.8 - 43.8)


6) Healing, "you gain x ___", etc  治疗,“你获得xxxx”等

Each point of healing, when completely unmodified by talents, gives 0.5 threat. Replace the proof for (2) by the second person only healing.
每点治疗,无天赋修正情况下造成0.5的仇恨值,通过(2)的实验中一个只负责治疗的人证明。

Note: overhealing doesn't count, only the actual amount healed. This is easy to demonstrate.
注:过量治疗不被计算。,计算实际治疗量。这个很容易论证。
Abilities that put "you gain x mana" in the combat log give 0.5 threat per point gained; life is the same. Examples would be drinking potions, but not natural regen, or the Shaman's mana spring totem.
战斗日志里的“你获得x法力”每点获得0.5仇恨值,生命值也一样。喝药水等都算,但是人物的自然回复的那部分以及撒满图腾提供的回复都无仇恨。
Abilities that put "you gain x rage" in the combat log give 5 threat per point gained. However, this is not modified by warrior stance. Such abilities include bloodrage, improved blocking talent, unbridled wrath, and 5/8 Might.
战斗日志里“你获得x点怒气”每点获得5点仇恨值。但是,这些不会因为战士姿态而修正。获得怒气的技能包括包括嗜血狂怒,增强盾挡天赋,无尽怒气,5件力量套等。
Like healing, these only give threat if you are below the maximum.
和治疗一样,状态满时候增加不会造成仇恨。

7) Explaining Cop's 4.0 damage to heal ratio 解释cop的关于4:1的伤害与治疗换算比率

Cop stated that in his tests, each point of damage by the warrior took approximately 4 points of healing by the priest, for the priest to get aggro. Here's how:
cop通过测试得到一个规律:战士1点伤害仇恨=牧师4点治疗仇恨,以下分析原因:

Warrior in defensive stance, with defiance: 1.45 multiplier
Gaining aggro from Warrior: 1.1 multiplier
Priest with discipline: 80% threat
Healing: each point gives 0.5 threat
战士在防御姿态,并且有defiance天赋:1.45修正
战士获得aggro:1.1修正
牧师有discipline天赋:80%仇恨
治疗:每点增加0.5仇恨
Together, 1.45 * 1.1 / 0.8 / 0.5 = 3.9875. Pretty darn close to 4.
综合:1.45x1.1/0.8/0.5=3.9875 非常接近4。


8) Threat from pulling?  add的仇恨?

There is no threat associated with pulling. The smallest amouts of threat we could generate drew aggro from a body pull, no matter how long we waited after the pull. Pulling with damage did not effect the results of tests such as in section (2) at all.
拉怪本身并不产生仇恨。无论在引到怪后我们等待多久,我们通过用身体引到怪产生aggro都只产生一个最小化的仇恨。而用攻击拉怪不影响(2)的测试结果。(意即为拉怪本身不产生额外仇恨,只有攻击制造的仇恨,计算量同(2)的测试结果)

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

后面不用颜色引用了。。。太多了,虽然有颜色不会看得眼累,但我想睡觉了。。

9) Taunt  嘲讽

The behaviour of taunt appears at first randomised or complicated. For instance, if you taunt a mob off another player, then do nothing, the mob will go back to the player as soon as the debuff wears off. It appears to be giving temporary hate, then. The following experiment disproves this: take any class, do 1000 damage or so to a mob, then stop. Then have a warrior taunt the mob, taking no action until the debuff has worn off. The mob will return to the original player. Now have the warrior twiddle his thumbs, have a beer, read the paper, etc, for as long as he likes (not too long or his buddy will probably die). Then have the warrior deal white damage until he gains aggro. You will find that in defensive stance with defiance, the first hit over 69 damage will score the warrior aggro. With battle stance, still only 125 damage is needed.
最初嘲讽被认为是随机且难解的,例如你嘲讽一个怪,然后什么都不做,这个怪会一直攻击你直到嘲讽debuff消失,看起来似乎是给了一个临时的仇恨,那么,这个实验将对此观点予以反驳:任意一个职业对怪造成1000伤害然后停止。然后一个战士嘲讽这个怪物,什么都不做等到嘲讽debuff消失。怪物将会重新攻击开始那个玩家,此时战士开始做各种表情等等来拖段时间(当然不能太长以免他的伙伴挂了)然后战士用普通攻击直到他获得aggro。你将发现防御姿态切有defiance的战士在达到69伤害后开始获得aggro,战斗姿态则需要125伤害。

The behaviour of taunt is surprisingly simple, once you remember the 10% rule. It will give you exactly the threat of the player on top of the threat list - but not the 10% needed for the mob to change aggro, only a temporary aggro from the debuff! If you do nothing, you will stay at 100% of the mob's old target's threat, and will lose aggro with the taunt debuff. With a relatively small effort, you can gain aggro.
当你想到10%规则后会发觉嘲讽原理如此简单! 它将给你永久仇恨使你位于仇恨列表顶端,但并不给你aggro需要的10%仇恨,在debuff存在下让你获得临时的aggro!如果你什么都不做,你的仇恨将停留在怪物之前目标的仇恨数值上,并且失去aggro。仍需要相当的努力,才能获得aggro。
The behaviour can be described as "temporary aggro, permament threat". It is easy to show that taunt does not give the warrior any constant amount of threat. Have player 1 body pull a mob, but do no damage to it. He now has 0 threat, but has aggro. Now have the warrior taunt, and do nothing. After the 3 seconds, the warrior will lose aggro. He is now on 0 threat, but does not have the more than 0 required to gain aggro, by the 10% rule.
嘲讽可以被描述为“临时的aggro,永久的仇恨” 很容易就证明嘲讽不是给战士一个恒量的仇恨值:玩家1拉一个怪,但是不攻击他,那么此时他仇恨为0,但是他有aggro。然后一个战士嘲讽,什么都不做,3秒后战士将失去aggro。此时战士仇恨是0,但是根据10%规则,他没有大于0的仇恨值来获得aggro。

10) Implications  推论

a) Regaining aggro. Considering the 10% rule, if you lose aggro naturally, someone will have at least 110% of your current threat. To regain it, you need 10% of that, or 121% of your current threat, at an absolute minimum. So don't lose aggro, it's hard to get back! Not that you didn't already know this, but still.
获得aggro,根据10%规则,你失去了aggro,必然有人造成了至少相当于你110%的仇恨值。为了拉回目标,你最少需要那个人110%的仇恨值,或者121%你自己的当前仇恨值。因此不要失去aggro,想拉回来很难。

b) Taunt is potentially your highest threat move, because it gives permanent threat. The longer other people have been beating on a mob while you were not, the more threat you will gain by taunting. But from the 10% rule, you will need to do a lot of work to get aggro if the mob has been attacked for a decent amount of time without you.
  嘲讽会把你移到仇恨列表最高位置,因为它带来的是永久仇恨。你不攻击而别人攻击怪物的时间越长,你通过嘲讽获得的仇恨就越多,但是根据10%规则,你需要在怪物转移目标前做大量事情来获取aggro。

c) Heroic Strike should not be used as a primary threat ability. Suppose you are tanking a level 62 mob. Let's give him 8,000 ac raw, and even assume he has 5 sunders stacked, for 5750 final ac, so he will take 48.89% of damage. A 15% crit rate is balanced by the 10% penalty to damage in defensive stance, and a 10% chance of a glancing blow chance for 50% damage. Then you can expect the 138 damage from Heroic Strike to contribute 67.5 damage on average, for a total of 212 unmodified threat. This is still only 82% of the threat a sunder would give. Even with a 1.3 speed weapon, you will still do 94% the threat of sunder per time interval.
  英勇打击不是主仇恨技能。假设你在tank一个62级的怪,它有8000护甲,并且有5个破甲效果,然后实际为5750的护甲,因此他将受到48.89%的伤害。 15%的致命一击率并受到防御姿态10%的伤害调整,以及10%的格挡率格挡50%伤害。那么你可以预算HS造成的138伤害换算成67.5的平均伤害。最高212的无修正仇恨值。可是仍然只有1个破甲的82%仇恨效果。即使是1.3攻击速度的武器,仍然只有94%的破甲的TPS。(月猪:罗嗦半天就是说破甲比hs更好拉怪)

Best practice is to spam sunder, and use HS in between to soak up excess rage.
实际效果最好是破甲和hs一起使用来消耗掉过量的怒气

d) Revenge ftw. You can expect to do about 345 unmodified threat with Revenge, including damage, against the mob in the example above, which is exceptional for the low rage cost, even throwing in 10 for a shield block. However, there is a rage cost of shield block, in that you will block more attacks, so take less damage, so gain less rage from damage. Two blocks for 180 damage and you can say goodbye to another 4 rage.
  复仇,通过复仇可以获得345的无修正仇恨值,还有伤害造成的仇恨,这一切只需要少量的怒气,甚至已经花费10怒用在盾挡上。但是在盾挡上消耗怒气,承受伤害也下降了。2次格挡180伤害你可以跟4怒气说再见了。

e) Demo Shout ftl. Demoralising shout does one sixth the threat of a sunder. Even spammed in defensive stance with defiance, you're doing no more threat than 42dps on each mob. Besides picking up whelps in Onyxia and tanking panthers in the Panther boss encounter in ZG, i can't see a compelling reason to use this.
  挫志吼叫,1/6的破甲仇恨值。即便是防御姿态+defiance天赋,降低每个怪42dps也无法带来更多仇恨。除非了黑龙蛋的那些小龙和zg里的一些豹子,真看不出有什么理由用这个技能。

f) Shield Slam ftl. Given the 6 second cooldown, there is no improvement in threat per second by using shield slam. With shield slam: 3 sunders and 1 shield slam every 6 seconds. About 212 threat per second, unmodified. With the 30 rage from the shield slam you can cast 1 sunder and about 1.2 heroic strikes, assuming you have the talents (which you would with any shield slam build), and are losing 3 rage per Heroic Strike from lost white damage rage (i.e. assuming 90 modified damage per hit). The 4 sunders and 1.2 heroic strikes every 6 seconds gives about 215 threat per second.
  盾牌猛击,6秒的cd,使用盾牌猛击无法对TPS有任何改善。3破甲1盾牌猛击每6秒,大概212的无修正TPS。但是30怒的盾牌猛击可以使用1破甲和1.2的英勇,假设你有盾牌猛击天赋(无论你怎样的天赋树结构),每次英勇都从普通攻击中损失3怒。4破甲1.2英勇每6秒带来215点TPS。

The only improvement is if you are spamming both sunder and HS, and want even more threat. Suppose we have a 2.0 speed weapon, HS spam and sunder spam. That's about 280 unmodified tps. Changing one sunder for a shield slam gives us 318 unmodified. However, the same effect would be achieved by changing to a 1.4 speed weapon and casting HS more often. And these values aren't taking into account autoattack damage, which makes the margins comparatively smaller.
唯一的好处是,当你一直在使用破甲和英勇打击,仍然希望获得更多的仇恨。
假设我们使用一个2s攻击速度的武器,英勇打击和破甲一直使用,这大概造成280的仇恨/秒。
如果把一个破甲换成盾牌猛击将给我们提供318点的额外怒气。当然,这个效果也可以通过换成1个1.4秒攻击速度的武器而更频繁的使用英勇打击来实现。但是,这个结果并没有考虑自动攻击的伤害造成的仇恨,实际上,使用一个1.4速度的武器,会使自动攻击的仇恨变小一些。

g) There's no amazing super secret randomised blizzard aggro algorithm. The concepts are simple and the values can be fitted with nice numbers. Even formulas for threat-reducing knockbacks can conceivably be worked out, if threat values are carefully monitored.
实际上,BLZ的怪物攻击目标的计算公式并没有什么特别秘密的计算方法。这个概念是很简单的,数值也很容易计算。甚至仇恨建立的数值和公式,也可以准确地计算出来----如果仇恨被很仔细的监视着。



Well, i hope some of you are still awake, and are feeling somewhat enlightened. And if you skipped to the bottom, i can't exactly blame you after my essay above.
好吧,我希望你们之中的有些人还是清醒的,能够从我的文章中发现一些有价值的东西。如果你。不好好看而只是扫了一遍,我鄙视你




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    本来想去看看原帖回复(实际上回复里有价值的东西最多是论坛的真理),结果发现一名叫Gannondorf的玩家发了一贴名为 Threat Generation And You(The Physics) 的文章.该文章引用了大段的kenco的原文,并且在后面添加了关于仇恨的内容,主要分析bwl3号.发现回帖都是赞扬,也没仔细看,先转来,慢慢翻~~~
以下是原版:
 
The "Aggro Ceiling" ---- aggro上限
This is a fairly new concept, in the sense that it has not yet played a significant part in the design of the WoW endgame until this point. Broodlord Lashlayer is the first boss you will encounter where it is a featured aspect of the encounter. The essential ideas are as follows:
这是一个全新的概念,感觉上这点是wow最后阶段设计的核心部分.血领主Lashlayer是第一个你会体会到这点的boss,这个实质概念如下:

* In general, with healing support and sufficient rage, any warrior will be able to generate at most a certain maximum amount of threat in any given unit of time.
*一般来说,在有治疗支持和足够的怒气情况下,一个战士都能够在单位时间内制造一定数量的最大仇恨 (月猪:我理解是每个战士都有自己独特的TPS)
* As long as the amount of threat generated per unit of time exceeds the rate at which all the other members of the raid are generating threat, the MT in question can continue to keep aggro control indefinitely. This is the situation for essentially every raid boss prior to Broodlord Lashlayer. It is true even if the boss in question has a way to permanently reduce the MT's accumulated threat, as long as the reduction is by some flat amount.
只要战士TPS大于队伍里其他任何一个人的TPS,战士应该就能拉住仇恨. 而且即使有像血领主Lashlayer这样有减仇恨技能的boss,只要减低的仇恨是一个固定数值,该观点依然有效.
* If a given encounter involves an ability that permanently removes a certain percentage of accumulated threat from the MT, rather than a flat amount, then at some point the amount of threat removed each time this ability is used will be equal to the maximum amount of threat that can be generated in the time between two uses of the ability.
如果减仇恨技能移去的是mt的总仇恨值的一个百分比而不是固定数值的仇恨,那么此技能作用可看成是使一定时间内仇恨值达到了最大值.(月猪:没看懂什么意思吧?那看下面)
* When this occurs, it creates an aggro "ceiling" beyond which the MT can effectively no longer build threat. As soon as another member of the raid exceeds that ceiling, there will be no way to avoid pulling aggro from the MT. This is especially significant for classes with no way to permanently reduce their own threat: mages, warlocks, and all types of healers.
当上述情况发生,它制造了一个aggro上限使mt仇恨无法继续建立.一旦其他成员超越了这个上限,他们将ot,这对那些没有减仇恨技能的职业非常重要,这些职业如:法师,术士,以及各种治疗者.
* As an arbitrary example, assume that a given warrior can generate 1000 "units" of threat in 30 seconds, and every 30 seconds a given boss mob permanently reduces his threat by 10%. At some point in the encounter, the warrior in question will have 9000 "units" of threat immediately after being de-aggro'd. In the next 30 seconds, he would generate enough aggro to reach 10000 "units", but would be reduced back to 9000 immediately thereafter. As a result, the warrior in question would never be able to exceed approx. 10000 units of threat. Any other player that exceeds that much accumulated threat would be unable to avoid pulling aggro from the warrior.
举个例子:假设一个战士在30秒内能造成1000仇恨,并且每30秒boss都有技能减低他10%的仇恨.在某时刻,这个战士可能在总仇恨为9000时候失去aggro.但是在下个30秒里,他本可以制造足够仇恨让总仇恨达到10000,但是又会降低回9000.因此,那个战士可能永远也无法使仇恨超过10000. 其他任何一个人超过了10000仇恨都可能会导致仇恨失控.
  The worst possible scenario for encountering this aggro ceiling occurs when a boss mob is untauntable. In that case, there is no way for the current aggro leader to avoid receiving the brunt each time the de-aggro ability is used. This is the situation for Broodlord Lashlayer.
  最糟糕的情况就是这个aggro上限发生时候,该怪物是嘲讽免疫.这种情况下主tank无法避免吃到这种周期性的减仇恨技能,血领主Lashlayer就是这样的.

Because the primary de-aggro ability used by the Broodlord affects only a single target, the more MTs are alive and building aggro at any given time, the more that de-aggro effect will be "spread" across multiple MTs and the higher overall threat the aggro leader will be able to reach as the encounter progresses. Every time an MT is lost during the encounter, the maximum effective height of the aggro "ceiling" is significantly reduced.
因为血领主的主要减仇恨技能只对一个目标有效,越多的mt活着并且时刻在制造仇恨,那么越多的减仇恨效果将被平分通过坦克链以及ot的人.这样主坦克就能继续拉住. 每当死掉一个战士,那么aggro上限所能承受的"重量"就会降低一些.
It is important to note the following:
注意以下重点:
* Certain classes with ways to permanently reduce their own aggro (rogues and hunters) can effectively ignore the impact of the aggro ceiling, via use of these abilities.
某些职业可以利用减仇恨技能(盗贼,猎人)来忽略aggro上限带来的影响.
* Talents and gear that reduce threat generation (such as Subtlety, or the 3-pc Netherwind set bonus) can be used by DPS and healer classes to lengthen the amount of time it takes them to reach and exceed the ceiling.
一些天赋和装备(像微妙,3件灵风)可以让dps和healer延长他们超越aggro上限的时间.
* Talents, gear, and stance utilized by warriors can increase the "height" at which the ceiling occurs, thus also lengthening the amount of time it takes for DPS and healer classes to reach and exceed the ceiling.
战士的天赋,装备,姿态同样能延长dps和healer超越aggro上限的时间.
* Depending upon circumstances, it may be possible for classes with no intrinsic threat reduction abilities (mages, warlocks, priests, druids, and paladins in particular) to actively suicide during an encounter, so that an OOC rezzer can bring them back to life. This is effectively another mechanism by which such classes can wipe their aggro slate clean. Any use of organized "suicide chains" should be carefully considered before being implemented for a given encounter, since they are by no means always necessary.
综上所述,没有减仇恨的职业可以通过自杀然后被ooc的人救起来清除仇恨.在一些战斗中可以实现一些有组织性的自杀链,但也不是必须的(月猪:实际上1.9以前都这么做过)
There are a number of ways to help mitigate the "aggro ceiling" effect, but the Broodlord Lashlayer encounter is one place in which it operates at full force.
还有很多办法来减轻aggro上限效果,只不过血领主lashlayer战斗必须让这种效果最大化.

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

kenco文章里提到了cop的论述,干脆也把cop的那篇绝对经典也转来:

  Relative hate values (updated for 1.7 patch)

  The tests were performed by proximity aggro'ing a level 56 melee mob with the warrior. I first found a ratio of damagehate:healinghate, a number that came out to 4.0 in defensive stance with my warrior/priest combo. For the trials, I would perform each skill anywhere form 1 to 6 or more times, then begin healing. At the point the priest got aggro, I summed the healing, subtracted (damage dealt * 4.0), and divided by the number of times the skill was done. Each trial has been repeated at least 10 times, and my results were extremely consistent. This is primarily useful as a guide to relative hate values.
  本实验是由一个战士和一个56级的肉搏怪完成的. 首先我找到伤害:治疗的仇恨比值,防御姿态战士/牧师的结果为4:1. 然后开始实验,我将一个技能都使用了1到6次甚至更多次,然后开始治疗. 当牧师aggro的时候,我开始将治疗量相加然后减去伤害x4,然后除以技能使用次数.每次实验重复至少10次,结果数值非常接近. 这对我们研究仇恨值非常有意义.

This is the post's third iteration. Data has been retested thoroughly and updated as of the 1.7 patch on the test server.
这篇帖子已经第3次更新.数据彻底进行了重新测试并且在测试服务器1.7版本里进行了更新.
If you see an errors please point them out.
如果你发现有错误那么请指出


Assumptions
All healing spells create the same hate per point healing. Crudely confirmed before tests.
Hate does not decay over time. Observation suggests this holds true.
Initial hate is negligible (a 50 point heal pulls aggro)
假设
所有的治疗法术造成一样的HPH(hate per healing 即每点治疗产生的仇恨) 测试前我们粗略的肯定. 仇恨不随时间衰减. 初试仇恨忽略(50点治疗得到aggro的仇恨).

Findings
They fixed shield slam! Before 1.7 the innate hate value worked out to around 200, it is now closer to 1000. See its entry for the test results as of the 1.7 test patch.
The damage done by skills (such as the 450-550 of shield slam) incurs hate equal to normal melee damage. Each skill has a set amount of hate attached (I call it "innate" hate) when the skill lands on a mob. The existance of this "innate" hate is determined mainly through crits. A heroic strike crit, for example, will do (innate hate+damage) worth of hate, not (2*total hate).
结论
他们修正了盾牌猛击! 1.7版本以前innate仇恨为200,现在接近1000. 这个技能的伤害(450-550)制造的仇恨与普通攻击相等. 当任何一个技能使用在一个mob上,该技能将有一定数量的附加仇恨(我称为innate仇恨). innate仇恨取决于是否出现了致命一击. 比如英勇出现致命一击后,将造成 innate仇恨+伤害仇恨)而不是总仇恨x2. (月猪:我也看的很糊涂)
Cleave has extra hate attached to it much like heroic strike.
顺劈有额外附加仇恨,和英勇类似.
Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, and Bloodthirst have no innate hate.
旋风,致死,嗜血没有innate仇恨.
Piercing howl is absolutely zero (or an immesurably low amount of) hate.
刺骨肯定是0仇恨(或者非常低到可忽略).
Sunder armor is the same amount of hate per application, regardless of how many sunders are already on. The same is true for demoralizing shout and thunderclap.
The sunder armor debuff seems completely independent of the hate it generates. Hate does not decrease when the debuff wears off and, as mentioned above, multiple applications, even beyond the stackable limit, will give just as much hate as the first.
破甲每次都造成同等仇恨,不论有多少破甲效果已存在.同样还有挫锐吼叫和雷霆一击.破甲的仇恨是完全独立,并不是效果消失仇恨就会下降.任何情况下,每次破甲都和第一次造成的仇恨一样.(月猪:我们不是火星)
Shield bash damage is independent of the innate hate it produces, as with other skills. Thus, shield bash crits only produce hate equal to the extra 44 or 45 damage.
Heroic strike is a surprisingly high amount of hate, and has very acceptable efficiency with talents, against low armor, and with a fast weapon.
和其他一些技能一样,innate仇恨并不取决于盾击的伤害.因此盾击的致命一击只能制造相当于44或者45伤害的等量仇恨.
英勇打击令人吃惊的是个高仇恨技能,并且对于低护甲,本身使用攻击速度快的武器加上天赋效果非常明显.

The shield block/revenge combo is only marginally better for hate generation than sunder armor (with talents). The exception is that shield block (with talents) often forces two consecutive revenge openings, and the mitigated damage is an obvious bonus.
盾挡+复仇只比破甲仇恨高一点点,除非出现连续挡格或者打出的伤害很可观.

Shield slam was about 200 innate hate in 1.6. It is close to 1000 now.
Skills and attacks create roughly 1.65 times more hate in defensive stance than in battle stance.
盾牌猛击1.6版里大概有200的innate仇恨,现在将近1000(1.7)
技能和伤害在防御姿态的时候比战斗姿态多1.65倍的仇恨

Notes
No number is exact. This is more of a loose guide.
I was very careful and methodical in my tests. Overhealing and other interfering factors were kept to a minimum (hopefully zero!).
All attacks were done by a warrior with defiance and in defensive stance unless otherwise noted.
注意
没有完全准确的结果,最多是一个大概的指引.我非常仔细的并且系统的进行我的测试.过量治疗以及其它影响因素保证到最小(几乎是0).所有的攻击由一个有defiance天赋和防御姿态的战士完成,如果有其他情况会有说明.

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

The warrior has improved shield bash and does not have any level of improved revenge.
All healing was done by a holy/disc priest with the 20% threat reducing talent and inspiration (which I have determined to be aggro-free).
With this setup, tests were performed beforehand to determine the healing/damage hate ratio. 1 point of damage = 4.0 points of healing = 4.0 hate
Hate per point of rage does include damage.
There is a margin of error, but I tried to minimize it as much as possible. The primary source of error is the fact that the minimum healing increment is 52.





Skill Name
-Rage cost.
-Listed damage before armor is applied, taken directly from the tooltip.
-Attached or "innate" hate. This is completely independent of the damage the skill produces. It is purely a hidden "bonus blast" of hate when the skill lands successfully.
-Total hate including damage under varying armor levels.
-Hate per point of rage. This number indicates efficiency if you're wondering how best to dump your rage. Once again, it does include damage.
Formula used in #5: [ ((HateMin + HateMax)/2) + (((DamageMin + DamageMax)/2) * (1-DamageReduction) * 4.0 ] / RageCost
-perks: qualitative reasons to use a certain skill
-negs: negative stuff about the skill






Revenge
5 rage
64-78 damage
1200-1250 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
1510 total hate
302 hate per point rage
25% Damage Reduction
1440 total hate
288 hate per point rage
50% Damage Reduction
1370 total hate
273 hate per point rage
perks: very high efficiency, chance to stun with talents, fair damage for rage cost
negs: unreliable, and often requires use of a 10 rage skill to allow its use






Shield Slam
30 rage
450-550 damage
925-975 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
2950 total hate
98 hate per point rage
25% Damage Reduction
2450 total hate
82 hate per point rage
50% Damage Reduction
1950 total hate
65 hate per point rage
perks: 50% chance to dispell 1 magic effect, good damage, much improved efficiency as of test patch 1.7
negs: efficiency is very dependent on armor






Thunderclap
20 rage
103 damage (in battle stance, hate modifier of 2.25)
200-250 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
460 total hate
23 hate per point rage
25% Damage Reduction
400 total hate
20 hate per point rage
50% Damage Reduction
340 total hate
17 hate per point rage
perks: 10% attack rate debuff, affects up to 4 targets
negs: must be used in battle stance, breaks CC






Sunder Armor
12 rage (15 without talents)
no damage
1025-1075 "innate" hate
1050 total hate
88 hate per point rage (70 without talents)
perks: lowers target armor, no cooldown
negs: Some claim aggro is spotty with sunder armor when the debuff gets pushed off, when the debuff expires, or when it's stacked more than 5 times. My findings suggest none of this is true.






Shield Bash
10 rage
45 damage (ignores armor)
725-775 "innate" hate
930 total hate
93 hate per point rage
perks: spell interruption, silences for 3 seconds with talents
negs: long cooldown, spamming of the skill means it won't be available when needed






Demorializing Shout
10 rage
no damage
165-185 "innate" hate
175 total hate
18 hate per point rage
perks: attack power debuff, unlimited targets
negs: very low rage efficiency







Heroic Strike at 3 rage per swing
15 rage (18 without talents)
138 damage
590-630 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
1160 total hate
77 hate per point rage (65 without talents)
25% Damage Reduction
1020 total hate
68 hate per point rage (57 without talents)
50% Damage Reduction
890 total hate
59 hate per point rage (49 without talents)
perks: good damage, cooldown is weapon speed, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Heroic Strike at 7 rage per swing
19 rage (22 without talents)
138 damage
590-630 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
1160 total hate
61 hate per point rage (53 without talents)
25% Damage Reduction
1020 total hate
54 hate per point rage (47 without talents)
50% Damage Reduction
890 total hate
47 hate per point rage (40 without talents)
perks: good damage, cooldown is weapon speed, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Cleave at 3 rage per swing
23 rage
50 damage (110 with talents)
370-420 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
590 total hate (830 with talents)
26 hate per point rage (36 with talents)
25% Damage Reduction
540 total hate (720 with talents)
23 hate per point rage (31 with talents)
50% Damage Reduction
490 total hate (610 with talents)
21 hate per point rage (27 with talents)
perks: hits two targets, cooldown is weapon speed, more than doubled efficiency if a second enemy is in frontal arc, fair damage, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Cleave at 7 rage per swing
27 rage
50 damage (110 with talents)
370-420 "innate" hate
0% Damage Reduction
590 total hate (830 with talents)
22 hate per point rage (31 with talents)
25% Damage Reduction
540 total hate (720 with talents)
20 hate per point rage (27 with talents)
50% Damage Reduction
490 total hate (610 with talents)
18 hate per point rage (23 with talents)
perks: hits two targets, cooldown is weapon speed, more than doubled efficiency if a second enemy is in frontal arc, fair damage, doesn't interfere with global cooldown
negs: hinders rage production from attacks, is on-next-attack so it prevents the use of other skills if you wait for it to fire






Bloodrage
20 rage generated
337 damage to a level 60 player (168 with talents)
325-345 "innate" hate
perks: generates a good amount of rage
negs: the mob must be focused on you for it to create aggro, takes hp, less with talents





Final words
Shield slam is very effective in its improved form, especially in raid situations where rage is hard to spend. Revenge is best used whenever possible, as any warrior could have told you before.

Although it may be unrelated to this thread, protection warriors need a tanking edge of more than 10% armor. Managing hate is the only thing protection warriors have a clear advantage in, but honestly, in the raiding game any warrior can hold aggro just fine. I came up with the idea of removing anticipation and replacing it with a high-tier protection talent that adds 33% to defense from items, but...well, that probably won't happen.

Certain skills like shield slam heavily favor low armor targets. The skill is immensely more useful on a fully sunderered or naturally low armor monster.

And finally, note that the 4.0 healing to damage ratio is only useful for a protection warrior in defensive stance with a priest that has the -20% threat talent. That number is more of a reference point for measuring everything else.



Thank you to everyone who helped me make corrections and adjustments along the way, especially Greysen and Olona.

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

没看

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

拜读。这篇文章还真么看过。

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

头晕了

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[转帖]关于仇恨值的若干描述[防战必看贴!!!]

看了一半,太多

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